I mean seriously, what is it that makes Adobe so attractive to Microsoft employees? Are they looking for blogs like this one to write a reply and feed off some link bait? That's clearly a successful strategy, especially when the same bloggers selectively turn off comments on such posts. How lame.
Why not tell us about your technology, show us how it's better, faster, prettier, and maybe convert one or two of us?
I am really getting bored of it. Whenever I attend a non-Adobe conference and watch any Microsoft folks speak I hear how bad [insert Adobe technology here] is in comparison to [insert Microsoft technology here]. Is this really necessary? Can Silverlight not stand up by itself, or does it really require a bashing of the other guy? I simply don't see this behaviour in the Flash camp, they are quite happy to show their work and let that speak for itself. Good on you.
PS: Check out the tag cloud - says a lot about Microsoft's focus. Borderline obsessive.
#1 by Joe Hakooz on 11/19/08 - 2:00 PM
#2 by Stefan Richter on 11/19/08 - 2:07 PM
#3 by Daniel Larsen on 11/19/08 - 11:11 PM
That said, I think it is unfair to generalize all Microsoft employees under the example of one employee, Scott Barnes. He seems to enjoy poking fun at Adobe just to push buttons; he always has!
In Scott's slight defense, his tag cloud shows that he discusses a LOT of topics and companies. Sure he focuses on Flash vs Silverlight, but that is obviously what he cares about (as do I). They are similar technologies and it is what he lives and breathes for a living.
In short: I think Scott Barnes is highly annoying and contentious....but lets not blame Microsoft for that.
#4 by Stefan Richter on 11/20/08 - 8:37 AM
#5 by Daniel Larsen on 11/20/08 - 5:54 PM
#6 by Scott Barnes on 11/20/08 - 7:35 PM
To be clear on a few points if i may.
- The reason I post a lot of Adobe related topics is simply when I find an Adobe Staffer has made unfair/unjust comments about the Microsoft brand in general.
I've spent many years in the Macromedia/Adobe camp prior to Microsoft, and I've witnessed many things in this time. I simply would prefer to burst a few bubbles and allow folks to see an opposite view to a given topic that Adobe have blasted the mainstream press with or at times blogs.
Is this popular, depends. My blog is in the top 5% of Microsoft and the more I've talked to customers and competitors customers, the more the more I get the feeling they value my contribution to this topic at hand.
The thing about this topic is we shouldn't have to be in this situation in the first place and THAT is what they've found the most annoying.
At Microsoft we've made a lot of effort to ignore Adobe on so many counts around their constant poking via the press at our efforts in the Silverlight space. In this case, a CEO was sprouting ignorant remarks and I for one found it essentially unfair.
Given Stefan himself had said nothing about the fact, knowing full well it was infactual comments, no post, no "hey that's not correct.." remarks?
If leaders in this space like Stefan arent willing to correct the statements, then whom is?
- I disabled the comments because there is no upside to having opinions expressed about this. As clearly this blog post is an example of such. If I allowed the comments on the blog it would of been meet with either positive or negative comments about either myself or Microsoft.
Neither I'm intersted in, and would rather focus the attention on the topic at hand.
Adobe CEO making inaccurate statements in the mainstream press. If our CEO approached this problem like this, it would not only get echoed over and over but it would be meet with the same amount of hostility this blog post conveys.
In turn, I'm damned if i do, damned if i don't.
#7 by Stefan Richter on 11/20/08 - 8:00 PM
thanks for responding here and via email.
My point was that it's exactly these topics which I think do not need to be discussed. There is bull coming from both sides, and there's no point singling out the Adobe CEO. Especially not over an article that is largely correct, and we for example all know that Microsoft is going around all the agencies in town and 'offering all the help they require'. But even that I don't mind, Microsoft has the financial pulling power so why not use it? Just don't pretend that it's not happening. And what have video codecs got to do with it anyway, I really didn't understand that closing part at all.
Are you saying that you will practice what you preach and put your own colleagues straight when they come up with false claims and marketing spiel, since that is what you seem to believe has happened on the NFL/NBC deal? No, I didn't think so, and for every such example you can cite I am confident I could cite twice as many... But in the end if we go down that road we'd end up slinging mud, and it's that what I would like to see end.
Healthy competition yes, but let's keep the gloves on.
#8 by Scott Barnes on 11/21/08 - 3:54 AM
It's clear you and I aren't likely to see eye to eye on this one topic, and i'd ask you to do a wider amount of research with a focus on Adobe Staff blogs/twitter messages and factor in their behaviour aswell.
If you HAD bothered to do this, then simply pointing the finger at my one blog post and asking that the Adobe CEO shouldn't be singled out is somewhat unfair?
An Adobe CEO makes wild accusation and essentially you're crying foul that a Microsoft Staffer provided comments on such? Nothing I said wasn't true, and there is public record that refutes Adobe's CEO's message.
I'm yet to see evidence that we've followed the same line of practice with regards to Adobe? Or is that tid bit of information not relevant for this witch hunt?
Healthy competition? on one hand the Adobe CEO insinuates that our success is solely derived from opening our cheque book. At the same time, at MAX 2008 we just saw Adobe focus their entire attetion on MIX07 customers whom adopted Silverlight, with Adobe XD Team writing the solutions for such wins.
It's somewhat double standard, yet here I am, defending Microsoft over not being fair towards Adobe?
It's clear you're a fan of Adobe products and find that our position in this space is causing you an amount of conflict, fine, but please keep it within the bounds of reality.
I'd like to see more balanced argument here instead of an Adobe Community member posting unresearched randomized arguments as to why Microsoft is up to no good - yet again and basing all points off a one-sided biased view.
You wondered why i disabled my comments? take a hard look at this post and ask yourself a simple question "are you conveying the whole picture or just the Microsoft focused version".
The codecs remarks were also to convey a point, Microsoft has been leaders in the Video space for many years to assume we're simply playing 'catchup' is to ignore the work we've done in the past 10+years.
Thanks for your time Stefan,
Scott.
#9 by Joe Hakooz on 11/21/08 - 5:49 AM
ASP.NET is currently my language of choice and I almost always stick up for Microsoft. But MS failed me in one department over the years and Adobe stepped up to the plate to say the least.
Sure, windows media has been around for 10+ years but it became stagnant and very difficult to develop consistent user experiences. Same for QT and Real. Years and versions came and went with little improvement in that arena.
Then, Macromedia shows up with a technology seemingly inspired by user experience and plain old innovation. Quickly, this technology adopts video, and in just a few short years Flash Video is one of the leaders. Their plans for the future are incredible too. (voice recognition meta-data for example).
Again, I'm an MS fan, but it's bad enough to develop for multiple browsers (IE and other). Now I have to develop for Flash and Silverflash? It's that kind of crap that created the MS haters in the first place. Not propoganda or a "witch hunt" as Scott says.
Here's the point...
I'm sure both sides of this political battle are right and wrong. I can't help but let the products, not the CEOs, do the talking, and in my opinion, Flash has a lot more to say these days...
</rant>
#10 by barry.b on 11/21/08 - 6:38 AM
you broadcasting "Adobe appear to be in reactive mode, which is good for us" is just what Stefan is saying. Mate, it's plain unnecessary and it's sad you have to go to such lengths.
besides, you've been given a lot of good ideas to help push Silverligh along, and if you're not willing to recognise and act on them, well, that's your problem.
#11 by Scott Barnes on 11/21/08 - 11:31 PM
Get fair dinkum? wtf are you on about and you in one of your soap box modes again?
I find it funny to be openly honest that you're willing to digest Adobe's CEO making false statements about Microsoft but oh no, the moment Microsoft defends itself it's not being "fair dinkum".
I get i'm not likely to get supporters to the .NET cause on a blog of this kind, but seriously this is simply a case of Adobe vs Microsoft not so much about the context.
I will agree though it should be about the products not the PR, but when you have Mike Downey and he's staff constantly picking at Microsoft as a brand and so forth, we at least reserve the right to defend ourselves surely?
Or would you prefer we simply roll over and take it.
I don't see anyone punishing Adobe on this one?
#12 by Brian Lesser on 12/1/08 - 1:43 PM
Actually Adobe's CEO didn't say NBC chose Flash Video if that's what you mean. Here's the actual quote:
"The BBC moved over, the NFL [National Football League] went live with us using NBC. Microsoft and NBC have had a long standing relationship, but they picked us."
In the last sentence "they" refers to the NFL and not to NBC. So I don't think Adobe's CEO got it wrong at all.
Scott, I personally find your writing to be regularly and uniquely offensive. From my perspective all you have done is alienate people like me from ever thinking about Microsoft as a company I can trust to communicate honestly, directly, and clearly.
#13 by Steve Carpenter on 12/2/08 - 7:43 AM
Instead of arguing every last point, why not point us at functionality and innovations your platforms offer, like DeepZoom and Photosynth so we can make up our own minds? Give me links to facts and examples. For me too it puts me off looking any more deeply at Silverlight and what it can do. The rhetoric just gets in the way.
#14 by Scott Barnes on 12/2/08 - 8:00 PM
Sorry to hear you say that, but that's the way it is. My position is to protect Silverlight's brand and if it means ruffling a few Adobe fans feathers to convey that in this case.
Here's some evidence of Adobe's staffers doing the same thing:
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2008/09/adobe-cs3-used-o...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2008/09/to-save-vista-mi...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/09/silverlight-10-f...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2008/02/microsoft-vs-ado...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2005/09/my-take-on-wpfe-...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/10/sams-on-silverli...
http://onflash.org/ted/2008/09/did-microsoft-just-...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/09/flex-and-flv-in-...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2006/09/microsoft-innova...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/01/mashup-universit...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2008/03/nike-plus-launch...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/01/mashup-universit...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/09/windows-live-str...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/12/2008-ria-trends....
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2008/05/curl-benchmarket...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/01/flex-3-most-impo...
http://twitter.com/mdowney/status/1016114065
http://twitter.com/mdowney/status/866438542
http://twitter.com/mdowney/status/344963222
http://twitter.com/mdowney/statuses/866438542
http://madowney.com/blog/2008/07/30/microsoft-choo...
http://www.webkitchen.be/2008/07/29/microsoft-pick...
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2007/01/microsoft-uses-f...
http://www.webkitchen.be/2008/07/17/silverlight-th...
http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd/archives/2008/04/...
http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mtadmin/mt-search.cg...
I could go on and on..
Point? each of these staffers above have constantly made points of "one-uping" Microsoft whenever they can, that's fine, it's the nature of competition that's not what bothers me, it's only when they cross the line and either convey FUD or outline infactual data that I step in and simply say "actually, no...here's why that's stupid and wrong".
Until you folks push back on Adobe and simply say "this is not appropriate" then I will in turn do so, and sure when folks have pushed back and stated they only do it because "barnes does it" the attention is easy to deflect my way and given I actually display a tag cloud, it does look more one-sided.
Fact is, Adobe staffers have been somewhat aggressive towards Microsoft since Silverlight was announced, even at MAX 2008 we heard cheap remarks like "The loser has to go work at Microsoft" in their events. Have you heard such remarks by our staff at events like MIX or PDC?
Like I said, typical Witch hunt at work here.
#15 by Brian Lesser on 12/2/08 - 10:02 PM
Would you please reconsider? If you really want to beat the competition then you need to be better than them, not so much worse.
Yours truly,
-Brian
#16 by Scott Barnes on 12/3/08 - 4:10 AM
I understand your criticism, and I in part agree that I could approach the topics differently. The question is really though how should we all approach this?
I'll make you a promise here, i'll adjust my tone if you start pushing back on the Microsoft agression when you see the above links? As if there is harmony back to the conversation then I have no purpose in my blog posts right?
Fair?
#17 by Scott Barnes on 12/3/08 - 4:12 AM
I know Barry Beattie personally, we worked together so to the unware it looks like i'm attacking a commenter, but the tone is really more in line with Barry & My chats :) like "Baz, wtf are you on about now" :)
#18 by Brian Lesser on 12/3/08 - 2:33 PM
I don't agree that it is fair for you to ask me to police Adobe before you will consider taking a different approach. I also don't think the question at hand is how "should we all approach this?" There is no need for you and I to agree on a single approach or even on a specific issue. I'm only asking that you find a way to be mostly civil rather than mostly offensive. I understand that you feel like the injured party, but I hope you understand that I don't have to always see it that way. I likely have a different view of the competitive dynamics between Microsoft and Adobe than you do. After all, while I work with products from both companies, I don't work for Adobe or Microsoft. I think we should be able to discuss different ideas and perspectives without suffering the kind of routinely offensive and abusive writing you post in so many different forums and blogs.
You wrote earlier that you want to defend Silverlight's brand. I think you should know that from my perspective your posts are having the opposite effect. When I go looking for information on Silverlight, Windows Media, or WPF, on forums or blogs I'm looking for information that I can use in my work. Similarly, when I look for information on the Flash platform I'm looking for the same thing: clarity, useful information, informed dialog, different perspectives etc. I'm not looking to read the verbal equivalent of throwing the first punch in a bar fight. That stuff not only gets in my way, it also poisons my perception of Silverlight and your employer.
At the risk of boring anyone reading this by repeating myself: would you please reconsider? If you really want to beat the competition then you need to be better than them, not so much worse.
Yours truly,
-Brian
#19 by Scott Barnes on 12/3/08 - 9:52 PM
I take your points and think we're at a stalemate. You're a member of the Flash community and I've known of your profile prior to this post and would regard both you and Stefan as leaders in the FlashCom space.
If you're not willing to help police the facts from fiction, and you're more than willing to accept anti-Microsoft behavior but aren't looking to tolerate push back from Microsoft, then we simply have to agree to disagree on this case. If this disrupts your views of what Silverlight has to offer, then I'm not sure we stood a chance either way as if you're more interested in the personalities of a product than the actual product? then what is it you're doing in the end?
I also get a mixed reaction to my approach, as whilst you may feel conflict towards the way i approach things, i also get others saying they're glad someone's doing this. It's simply a balancing act, and my blog isn't setup to promote anyone product. I happen to be part of the product team for Silverlight, but i also am part of the team for other products other than Silverlight.. my role is actually quite wide.. At the tip of it though, is looking to adjust perceptions around the product and debate if need be when folks get it wrong.
My blog is simply a blog, no real agenda with it, other than a place to echo my thoughts. If you find them offensive, then clearly it's not the blog for you and sorry I can't accomodate your needs this time.
All the best.
#20 by Brian Lesser on 12/3/08 - 10:08 PM
Did Silverlight have a chance with me? You obviously have no idea. Where I work we still use Windows Media and initially were quite excited by Silverlight. Don't be in such a rush to make partially informed judgments about people.
-Brian
#21 by Scott Barnes on 12/3/08 - 10:15 PM
Have you read the above links? you think it's ok for Mike Downey @ Adobe to refer to Silverlight in immature fart jokes and you're ok with this? I mean what are the rules of engagement here in terms of guidelines for both Microsoft & Adobe? Are the same or are we expected to be held at a different standard, given you have a blog devoted to Flash?
As for Adopting Silverlight, I never questioned whether or not you have or haven't adopted. I simply stated that if you're looking to hold your adoption likelihood hostage to my behaviour patterns then in my view, it's simply a losing fight either way. You should adopt technology that suites your or your employers needs for your respective customer etc (usual rant about adoption).
If you are making adoption decisions based off whom is the better personalities associated with a brand, then you're only hurting yourself.
hth.
#22 by Brian Lesser on 12/4/08 - 1:36 AM
The thing I've been trying to tell you is that your writing has been uniquely offensive. The things you write are so routinely abusive that they make the things you've linked to pale into insignificance.
I'm trying to tell you that you are way out there. In fact you are so far out there that I thought someone should at least try to tell you that directly and clearly.
Now it is time for me to focus on other things.
Goodbye Scott.
-Brian
#23 by Scott Barnes on 12/4/08 - 5:53 AM
Totally understand your point of view, and i'll make some adjustments to accomodate your points. In that, don't take this as me being arrogant, upon reflection i can see how you've arrived at this opinion and spoke with some colleagues today internally & externally and they've indicated that maybe I can back off a little on Adobe.
So Stefan & Brian, thankyou for your input and let's move forward then?
Given today's announcements with Adobe layoffs, it gives you some time to reflect I guess.
#24 by Stefan Richter on 12/4/08 - 9:48 AM
As far as the layoffs go, let's hope that Microsoft remains entirely unaffected of the current economic climate. However I am not sure upon what exactly we are meant to reflect on here. Laying quality staff off would not have been a decision that Adobe makes lightly, but undoubtedly it was a necessary one in order to be well prepared for the approaching eye of the storm.
#25 by Brian Lesser on 12/4/08 - 12:05 PM
That would be much appreciated.
Yours truly,
-Brian